Rectification of how De Buff works

[IssacFrost]

First we would need some mathematical tests to demonstrate how de buffs usually work:

Buffalo Sense Breaker and Luck Breaker
A level 100 Power type full AP would do with its Sense Breaker and Luck Breaker respectively:
810+200 AP sword= 1010 raw AP

(1010/16)*.51= -32 DA
(1010/16)*.51= -32 LK

Considering a Sense pure DA or pure LK would have 49 DA or LK at level 100

49-32= 17 DA or LK

This is very strong indeed. At least it would seem to be until a Sense type includes DA or LK gear as well as self buffs.
80 DA (buffed and taking into account equip bonuses) - 32= 48

A DA Fox Sticky Foot
A Sense type 49 DA from our previous example would do with its debuffs:

49*.51= -24 HV

A level 100 Charm pure HV would also have 49 HV.

49-24= 25 HV

Although not as high as the Buffalos effect this is still very strong considering how low HV numbers are.

Meltdown is the weakest of the De Buffs
A level 100 Magic type with pure MA would have 99 MA.
A level 100 Charm would have 49 HV if pure HV. The debuff Meltdown would then do:
49*.51= -24 MA
99-24= 75 MA

Lets assume the same example but with self buffs up:

49 HV*.45 max dodge master buff= 71 HV
99 MA*.45 max mist of mana buff= 143 MA

Now let us do the debuff again:
71*.51= -36 MA
143-36= 107 MA

Again the numbers of the de buff are extremely low relative to the amount of MA available.

Now let us take the Sense type example versus the Charm type. Both have 49 in their respective stats DA and HV.

49 DA*.45 max sixth sense buff = 71 DA
49 HV*.45 max dodge master buff= 71 HV

Now lets calculate the Sticky Foot debuff again

71*.51= -36 HV
71-36= 35 HV!!!

Extremely crippling indeed!

However let us take the same example but this time with a Lion
24 DA*.51= -12 HV
71-12= 59 HV

This means Lions who have no use for DA would never be able to use de buffs effectively. A similar problem can be found in Cats who usually go AP or DP or AP/DP
24 HV*.51= -12 MA
99-12= 87 MA

Furthermore equips and bonuses are not even taken into account. Therefore a buff is highly superior then a de buff would ever be, when usually buffs and de buffs are almost on par in power.

After analyzing the way de buff works we find that its purpose weak due to the fact that it works at a formula level doing set decrease rather then being a percentile decrease similar to how buffs work. This brings several problems making them harder for example for a certain characters to use properly. For example a Fox has major advantages over a Lion when using De Buffs because Lions do not use DA. By the same token a similar problem is observed between Raccoon and Car since most Raccoons are HV but Cats are usually DP.

Furthermore the way the de buffs work does not take into account the amount of Equipment grown with target stat or the fact that buffs act as a percentile increase including in its equation all status enhancing bonuses. So if a max Dodge Master with its *.45 increase is activated and the Charm character had roughly 31 HV and +10 in bonuses he/she will suddenly posses 59 HV total. This increases the innefectivness of de buffs as form to cripple opponents and making them weaker.

Therefore we suggest that de buffs work similar to buffs being percentile instead of depending on a fixed formula. However to not break the equation of fairness de buffs should be instead of a lower percentage drop. Considering most de buffs are a 51% I recommend that this percentage is lowered, perhaps to a 42-48% of the total of the stats. This would simplify the code since now it would only check stat and apply it to percentage without need of further formula in essence treating it similar to how buffs work.

The main reason for this is to allow any character who has Mastered a de buff to make correct use of it independently of whether they have the correct stat for the equation as evidenced by the lack of effectiveness Lions/Cats have over Foxes/Raccoons when de buffing.

Note: The only reason Power and Magic types buff are effective is because both rely on a main stat the character requires. Whereas Power needs AP magic needs MA both de buffs work off this stat in its equation.

Note: Another option would be to take into account HP or DP instead of HV for Charm types de buff similar to how Power types use AP, and switch DA with LK for Senses instead of DA which Lions have no use for.

For large numbered Stats such as AP, HP, DP perhaps a total percentage reduction of 48%. So a Buffalo with 1010 AP hit with a 48% Rust would suddenly have 526 AP instead.

For low number stats perhaps a 42% so a 99HV Coon hit with Sticky Foot would suddenly have 58 HV.

Someone with 25 LK would suddenly have 14. This also means that De Buffs can no longer set you in the negative or zero mark.

We could also have a set de buff percentage for all stats just as similar as how most self buffs have a set 45% increase. However some of the de buffs have to be modified to have a set percentage that is fair to the amount of stat available. For example buffs that affect DP or AP are low in percentage and do not follow the 45% mark.

DX debuffs could be a set effect like giving +4~7.

List of Debuffs and Buffs

Armor Breaker Master 88 5s 38% 40s
Sense Breaker Master 54 5s 51% 38s
Shock Vibe Master 54 5s 51% 38s
Luck Breaker Master 54 5s 51% 38s
Rust Master 54 5s 51% 36s
Mana Web Master 54 5s 5.4 time 36s
Sticky Foot Master 52 5.00s 51% 36s
Armor Dest Master 88 5.00s 34% 14s
Meltdown Master 52 5s 51% 36s
Mag Def Break Master 50 5s 57% 36s

Buffs

Bulls Eye Master 300 10s 45% 120s
Pumping Heart Master 320 10s 16% 160s
Quick Action Master 400 10s -3 120s
Mist of Mana Master 380 10s 45% 180s
Magic Tent Master 240 10s 45% 180s
Sixth Sense Master 300 10s 45% 120s
Lucky 7 Master 300 10s 45% 120s
Sturdy Shield Master 320 10s 34% 90s
Shield All Master 320 10s 18% 160s
Dodge Master Master 300 10s 45% 120s

Of course any suggestion is welcomed.

[IssacFrost]

Ok I guess too much complciated explanation: This gist is DEBUFF would be a lot heck easier if they just work by dropping stats by a percentage instead of the way they work now.

Why bother you ask? Simple With debuffs a power can actually cripple AC and LK. A sense can kill HV and DP. A charm can kill MA and MD. And a magic can cripple AP and DX making it easier for them to kill their intended targets, specially in PvP.

Talk about no interest. Oh well...

[Juno]

It's not that i'm not interested, it's that i have nothing to add.

Although, even if it's only 24MA, that's 92lvls worth of it, and it factors into damage differently but several hundred dmg per spell would be avoided there.

[rokaraged]

3 things

1. Although i don't think is going to convince many others to change thier builds this should be stickied
2. The thought of certain builds being debuffed to hell is great.
3. wrong section though

[citrustang]

yeah, this belongs in general guides.

great work though.

[JC]

Issac, don't get all sour acting like the information is useless, it's very detailed work.

Kudos to you though, I think you deserve some karma for this or something.

[Eclipze]

I'll just add one thing: In PVP, debuffing your opponent's MD is useless unless you have a mage partner to dish out the damage afterwards.

I have tested it out, and found that Mana Reflector is only based on 3 things:
1) The caster's MA
2) The receiver's MD
3) The receiver's HV (for calculating reflection %)

This means that, if a raccoon casts M.Reflector with 200MD, and a 100MA, 400MD dragon casts A.Rush on him, assuming the reflection % is 50:

AR raw damage per arrow = (100-49)*13.49 = 688
AR damage per arrow on raccoon = 688-200= 488
AR damage reflected to dragon per arrow = 488*50% = 244

Now, say if the dragon loses his MD through a debuff, the reflected arrow damage is STILL going to be 244.

Just wanted to point that out.

[Optical]

Great work as always Issac.

[Dreadlegion]

Hey i helped you test that meltdown stuff on me yesterday :O!

[IssacFrost]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

I'll just add one thing: In PVP, debuffing your opponent's MD is useless unless you have a mage partner to dish out the damage afterwards.

I have tested it out, and found that Mana Reflector is only based on 3 things:
1) The caster's MA
2) The receiver's MD
3) The receiver's HV (for calculating reflection %)

This means that, if a raccoon casts M.Reflector with 200MD, and a 100MA, 400MD dragon casts A.Rush on him, assuming the reflection % is 50:

AR raw damage per arrow = (100-49)*13.49 = 688
AR damage per arrow on raccoon = 688-200= 488
AR damage reflected to dragon per arrow = 488*50% = 244

Now, say if the dragon loses his MD through a debuff, the reflected arrow damage is STILL going to be 244.

Just wanted to point that out.

Yes I realized this a tad bit too late after I bought 1 point of Mag Def Breaker. Too bad coons/cats dont have a Mana Burn type skill to drain MP and do damage lol.

At any rate the problem with debuffs is that because of the way theyre setup some characters get advantages from it. For example Senses is the worst case scenario. There is no way a Lion would ever use DA. At least Cats can setup for HV or go DP/HV.

My recommendation is to lower the debuff percentage and make it work based off that percentage without additional formula effect. If they wanted they could use the stats as slight + bonus modifications and lower the percentage effect.

master Debuff Level: Stat is decreased by 38% + 1 for every 5 points in X stat.

At any rate the idea that they work on percentages is too free up the stat restriction. In this way a Cat could go DP and still have effective debuff use. A Lion can be AC and still use his debuffs. The only classes that the debuffs are correctly done is with Power and Magic as their main attacking stat is exactly what is used in the formula AP for power and MA for magic.

This would also allow debuffs to affect equip bonuses as well, YET never go below a certain level. So if its 42% it will always only cut up 42%.

If anyone can do some math as to a much more balanced percentages let me know. Im thinking maybe 36% low numbers (DA, LK, HV, DX) 38% medium stat numbers (MA, AC) 42% high stat numbers (DP, AP, MD) because since its affecting everything its still a lot.